Convo w/ex-atheist

Shekinah685: hello
LAC Astronomer: hello
LAC Astronomer: who is this?
Shekinah685: oopsie sophia
LAC Astronomer: oh hi...new screen name?
Shekinah685: change dmy sn yeah lolShekinah685: got tired of the other oneShekinah685: :-D
LAC Astronomer: well...I don't know how you demonstrate the existance of God
LAC Astronomer: I don't think you can, really
Shekinah685: well -- theres gotta beShekinah685: in a nutshell
LAC Astronomer: well how would you think to do it?
Shekinah685: the first thing that pops into my head
Shekinah685: is you have a coffee cup in your hand lets say
Shekinah685: you can't have coffee in it unless, say the waitresss pours it
Shekinah685: or you
Shekinah685: the point is
Shekinah685: coffee nevr ends up in the cup
Shekinah685: theres always some mover
LAC Astronomer: unless someone puts it there
Shekinah685: yup
LAC Astronomer: yeah...so the first mover argument
Shekinah685: it make sense but is it too simplified?
LAC Astronomer: well
Shekinah685: like can we apply that principle universally?
LAC Astronomer: I'm not sure...my Love in Antiquity prof said that it used to be a good argument, until we discovered gravity
LAC Astronomer: that gravity keeps the world moving, not God
LAC Astronomer: but I think he's wrong
Shekinah685: yeah what else did that guy say
Shekinah685: yer prof?
Astronomer: the one who said Catholicism is based on Aristotle's bad science
Shekinah685: i thought he was gonna move on to a better proof
Shekinah685: lol
Shekinah685: guess not
Shekinah685: aaaaaaah
LAC Astronomer: no...he didn't
Astronomer: but I think the first mover works, at least, to make an atheist reconsider atheism, though he may just become an agnostic
Shekinah685:hmmm i'll see what happens..
LAC Astronomer: well...how did the universe get here? by random chance? or by creation by God?
Astronomer: but an atheist should realize, at least, that there's no better argument for random chance then there is for creation
Shekinah685: what creation exists hence creator must exist?
LAC Astronomer: well...that is true
LAC Astronomer: but if the world had come into existence by random chance, it would have come into existence by random chance...the belief that the universe exists with no cause is simply an article of faith
Shekinah685:how so
LAC Astronomer: well...a theist can't say "God must exist...because if he didn't, things would be different like this"
LAC Astronomer: and an atheist can't say the opposite
LAC Astronomer: because the universe is as it is...and it's merely an argument about how it got that way
LAC Astronomer: I mean...we don't have anything to compare it to
LAC Astronomer: if we had a bunch of universes...some random and some made by a deity
LAC Astronomer: then we could say "well this one is a lot like that other one that God made"
LAC Astronomer: but...we can't
LAC Astronomer: does the atheist in question deny the existence of God, or merely deny knowledge of the existence of God?
Shekinah685: he says he cannot logically prove his existence
Shekinah685: too many contradictions
Shekinah685: in his reasoning
LAC Astronomer: he can't logically prove God's existance, or his own?
LAC Astronomer: if it's his own....then good luck arguing with him!
LAC Astronomer: if it's God's
LAC Astronomer: then I suppose he would say that he only believes in things he can prove
LAC Astronomer: in which case he is quite limited in what he can believe....
Shekinah685: exactly, can't prove God's existence
LAC Astronomer: because even logic is based on faith...faith that rationality can explain things, that the universe doesn't work at random
Shekinah685: i don't thin it s 100% definable
Shekinah685: *think
Shekinah685: but you used to think what, that you culden't prove God's existence?LAC Astronomer: when I was an atheist? I had no arguments...I just believed what my mom told me
LAC Astronomer: my atheism was all faith
Shekinah685: whoa
Shekinah685: interesting
Shekinah685: so how did you know? that she was wrong
LAC Astronomer: to tell the truth...I decided to believe in God
Shekinah685: but why?LAC Astronomer: because I couldn't grasp non-existance
LAC Astronomer: I couldn't understand what seperates a body that is alive and aware from one that isn't
Shekinah685: keep going... whaddaya mean
LAC Astronomer: death
Shekinah685: so how does death show God's existence to you?
LAC Astronomer: in the instance of death, the body is essentially the same matter
Shekinah685: yeah..
LAC Astronomer: well..it doesn't directly
Shekinah685: i see..go on
Shekinah685: thats my idea too
Shekinah685: actually
LAC Astronomer: I felt that it's evidence for the supernatural
Shekinah685: only in a differnt setting but don't let me interupt
Shekinah685: that certain chemicals together are dead and cetain are alive
Shekinah685: but in some instances they are the same
LAC Astronomer: I mean...the difference between a living person in a hospital bed, and the dead corpse a second later
LAC Astronomer: yes, exactly
Shekinah685: here's what i think: you see something beautiful
LAC Astronomer: the blood stops flowing and the brain stops working...but why did it ever work
Shekinah685: why is it beutiful
Shekinah685: a bunch of atoms moving around
LAC Astronomer: yeah
Shekinah685: when i see something like a lightning storm
Shekinah685: why does it move me in an untangible way?
LAC Astronomer: yeah?
Shekinah685: yeah. like if i feel pain because of some inexpressibile beautiful thing---and in the first place why is it striking me as beautiful?
Shekinah685: where do i get the idea of the beautiful
Shekinah685: and then what makes these particular situations more or less: it seems there must be some complete form of beauty
LAC Astronomer: so if you're going to argue that there is a Form of beauty
Shekinah685: if i desire it
Shekinah685: it must exist
Shekinah685: this isin't jmy idea
LAC Astronomer: you must explain why some people see an ocean shore as closer to that form, and others see a desert as closer to the form
Astronomer: so the perfect beautiful thunderstorm
Shekinah685: yeah---why is this action of scientific processes beautiful--i could combine things under a microscope rather than look at the sky and it would be the same chemicals working but the reaction?
Shekinah685: also i have desires for the infinite
Shekinah685: for things to last forever
Shekinah685: why?
Shekinah685: if i desire food ..
Shekinah685: it exists
Shekinah685: if i desire sex
Shekinah685: it exists
LAC Astronomer: that is a good argument
Shekinah685: every desire has a fulfillment
Shekinah685: CS Lewis;-)
LAC Astronomer: yeah, I know :-)
Shekinah685: but my point was similar to yours
Shekinah685: oh HAHA:-D
Shekinah685: at least i diden't pull it off as my own
LAC Astronomer: but if I desire...a flying horse to ride on
LAC Astronomer: it doesn't exist...so I'm not sure that argument always works
Shekinah685: good point--what is it about the flying horse you want?
Shekinah685: maybe there is a desire for the infinite contained within the horse with wings
LAC Astronomer: well the thunderstorm argument makes sense
Shekinah685: why do you want to ride it honestly?
Shekinah685: why do you care about flying
LAC Astronomer: to get where I'm going quickly, and to be able to get up hills that I couldn't walk up
Shekinah685: that's it?
Shekinah685: you don't even think it would be fun?
LAC Astronomer: well I think it would
Shekinah685: yeah so ... what is fun even?
Shekinah685: why do you want it
LAC Astronomer: so it could be a desire for fun...that is, pleasure...which is just a shadow of the pleasure of heaven
Shekinah685: or pleasure...
Shekinah685: well you could put it that way, but what i mean is don't say heaven you know
Shekinah685: just say endless pleasure
Shekinah685: doesn't everyone want that
Shekinah685: why?
LAC Astronomer: yes
LAC Astronomer: that's the point of much of what we do
Shekinah685: exactly
Shekinah685: if there is NOTHING endless
Shekinah685: at all
Shekinah685: we woulden't seek endless-ness
LAC Astronomer: then our desires make no sense
Shekinah685: it doesn't
LAC Astronomer: it's on a higher level then the flying horse...that's a desire for something that doesn't exist but somehow could... a desire for things which can be accomplished
Shekinah685: ok but he made apoint about faith
Shekinah685: why do you think flying horses don't exist?
Shekinah685: why do you thik batman's fake?
LAC Astronomer: batman? well batman could exist, his methods are technological and with the right technology you could do what he does
Shekinah685: ok but his "supernatural" powers
LAC Astronomer: okay...like someone like Superman, why doesn't he exist
Shekinah685: how do you know?
Shekinah685: ;-)
LAC Astronomer: I don't know...he may exist
LAC Astronomer: he's an alien...the universe is large
Shekinah685: you really think?-hey, its true
Shekinah685: no-one has ever shown that he doesn't
Shekinah685: it seems plausibleShekinah685: honestly... its a good point
LAC Astronomer: in fact, many atheists believe in aliens...aliens with greater powers (through technology) than we have
LAC Astronomer: so you can have God without Superman
LAC Astronomer: and Superman without God
Shekinah685: but it doesn't relate to the fact that God's existence is demonstrable
Shekinah685: i don't think
Shekinah685: start from scratch can we?Shekinah685: you are a little boyShekinah685: yourmmom tells you God does not existShekinah685: what happens in your headShekinah685: ?Shekinah685: ( i wanna know since you were that little boy)
LAC Astronomer: I think..."Mommy used to believe in God, then she found out God doesn't exist"
LAC Astronomer: I didn't give critical thinking to her arguments...I merely believed them cause I figured she would know
Shekinah685: hmmm...you trusted her like you trust scientists...: okShekinah685: i dunno
LAC Astronomer: I only found out I was an atheist when I started asking what Christmas was
LAC Astronomer: but...I did know about good and evil
...Shekinah685: did your mom tell you about that?
LAC Astronomer: she did, eventually
LAC Astronomer: but I knew it before
Shekinah685: how?
LAC Astronomer: I was afraid of the dark cause I thought evil things could find me there
Shekinah685: :-D me too
Shekinah685: dark=lack of light=lack of a due good=evil? LOL
Shekinah685: quite the little Thomist
Shekinah685: so go on
LAC Astronomer: haha...I suppose I was a little thomist...(in fact one of the streets we always took to get to my grandparent's house is called San Tomas Aquino)
Shekinah685: :-DShekinah685: i'm not a Thomist tho, lol
LAC Astronomer: I had a natural belief in the supernatural, I suppose is what I'm saying
Shekinah685: yeah exactly
LAC Astronomer: I had never heard of God, so I didn't think of Him
Shekinah685: okShekinah685: good
LAC Astronomer: but I had thought there could be good things to counter the evil things
Shekinah685: so you existed- you never thought of God
Shekinah685: what did you think aboutShekinah685: honestly?
LAC Astronomer: when I was little...I thought about space a lot
LAC Astronomer: like astronomy
Shekinah685: spaaaace! awesome
Shekinah685: why space io wonder?
LAC Astronomer: why space? because I thought I was smart...and I thought smart kids should like science
Shekinah685: HAHAAHAHA
LAC Astronomer: but the only science I knew about
: ok so when you got older..Shekinah685: what went on in your ehadShekinah685: *head
LAC Astronomer: well...you mean when I began to believe in God?LAC Astronomer: or just...what did I think of when I got older
Shekinah685: no i want to go throught eh whole process before that
Shekinah685: second
Shekinah685: i want to see the natural progression of someone who is unaware of God
Shekinah685: so ..LAC Astronomer: well...I suppose the way to see this is the evolution of my worldview thenShekinah685: sureShekinah685: ..LAC Astronomer: I always, from as long as I can remember, knew about the concept of magicLAC Astronomer: I mean, I'm sure I was taught about it by television and such...but really, I can't remember not knowing about itShekinah685: ok..LAC Astronomer: in fact, my parents used it..."how will Santa get in?" "he'll use magic"LAC Astronomer: (I mean...they didn't actually practice witchcraft...they "used magic" to explain things to me)Shekinah685: ok..LAC Astronomer: well...that was a supernatural thing, and I believed it well enough, though I thought it was unavailiable to meLAC Astronomer: so...then when I started asking about Christmas I learned that I was supposed to be an atheistLAC Astronomer: this made me "realize" the supernatural wasn't true
Shekinah685: uhuh
LAC Astronomer: once I found out that there was a concept of God, and moreover that I didn't believe in Him, I realized that there couldn't be anything beyond the world
LAC Astronomer: but I was still afraid of it
LAC Astronomer: of evil, supernatural things
LAC Astronomer: it went away for a while, until my friends in kindergarten told me about monsters that lived underground and would turn me into a monster if they found me at night
Shekinah685: uhuh
LAC Astronomer: so...I was always uneasy with dismissing the supernatural
Shekinah685: gotcha: so you were uneasy dismissing supernatural
LAC Astronomer: Astronomer: so the thing that really convinced me was the non-existance thing
Shekinah685: whendid yout hinki of this
LAC Astronomer: the idea of death being the end of things
LAC Astronomer: freshman year in highschool
Shekinah685: ok so the whole "this is a dead body, what is it that makes it be alive"
LAC Astronomer: (though I should confess...I had a strict moral code all my life that made me sympathetic to religious people)Shekinah685: really?LAC Astronomer: yes
Shekinah685: but you came up with this mroal code how?
LAC Astronomer: I don't know
LAC Astronomer: mostly what my parents told me, and what I took from it
LAC Astronomer: I often expanded it
Shekinah685: hmmmm..u did..
LAC Astronomer: I learned about sex, and they said that really, only married people should have sex
Shekinah685: they did?
LAC Astronomer: yes, they did...they have rather strict morals themselvesLAC Astronomer: but they maintain them without really thinking about their originsLAC Astronomer: it's selective Christian morals, reallyShekinah685: well it seems odd to have christian morals without the chirst aspectLAC Astronomer: but...I took that to mean that only married people should ever have sex, and that it's really only for the purpose of having children (part of this was my childlike revulsion towards sex, of course)
LAC Astronomer: yes...they simply have an idea of a "good person" and what a good person is like
LAC Astronomer: but it's not fully Christian
LAC Astronomer: for instance, my mom does not really believe in repentance and forgiveness...if I wrong her then say "i'm sorry" she'll say "what does sorry do?"
Shekinah685: ok i just thougth o fsomething
LAC Astronomer: yeah?
Shekinah685: it mat seem weirdShekinah685: but bear with me
LAC Astronomer: okayShekinah685: ok so like originally when i was a kid some one told me when i was 8 what sex was, just generally no specifics and my reaction was "eeeeeuuuw.. people do that????" but this was before i was aware of the unitive aspect of it or just before i became aware that certain desires were flfilled in certain ways now say with God...we might have an initial revulsion to his existence which i sperfectly natural because we can't see him just as int he same way initally we don't see the beauty of sex
Shekinah685: my point is
Shekinah685: there is avision lacking in both instances
LAC Astronomer: that doesn't seem weird, that seems right
Shekinah685: we jsut didne't see
Shekinah685: right?
LAC Astronomer: yes
Shekinah685: hmmm
LAC Astronomer: but is there really a revulsion to God?
Shekinah685: maybe not revulsion but a contestation
LAC Astronomer: yes...you hear about God and you think "Whaaaaa?" similar to what you think when you hear about sex for the first time
Shekinah685: but maybe like general knowledge of God is confusing just as general knowledge of sex cuz both seem weird at first
Shekinah685: yeah! i mean would any atheist ever contest the eixstence of sex??!?!?Shekinah685: just cuz its initially confusing when u first hear of it
LAC Astronomer: but God is not as immediately evident as sex...you can't show someone a picture of God (you shouldn't show them pictures of sex either, but you technically could)
Shekinah685: hmmm
Shekinah685: BUTShekinah685: tell the atheist to explain the experience...someone who has bnever experienced sex STILL won't get it fully just like an atheist has never experienced God so he won't get it
Shekinah685: i mean someone like the clueless litlle kid, so atheist are like virgins LOL
LAC Astronomer: yes...so you won't understand God unless you experience Him...that's true
LAC Astronomer: but then again, the atheist will say "I've never experienced God, and I don't believe that you have either"
Shekinah685: and you can't see a picture of Him but you can see his effects
LAC Astronomer: "you think you have, but really you haven't"
Shekinah685: ok..well..you exist i tell him because of some-ones else's actions yer parents? :-)
Shekinah685: ok well the whole picture of God thingShekinah685: how do you explain thatLAC Astronomer: well, how do I explain it?
Shekinah685: i dunno how to exlpain that -here hold on heres the question
Shekinah685:
Ergo Sum: If both are unseen facts, why do I accept one and not the other? Why does my logic, reasoning, and intelligence lead to recognize the Eiffel Tower as true existence and does not lead me to believe in God as any true existence? ANd HOW COME YOU BELIEVE IT? What secret premise of logic or reasoning you have that I am missing? What more do you know about the fact of God's existence and the existence of the Eiffel Tower that I lack??? Could it be FAITH?
Shekinah685: thats himShekinah685: what would you say
LAC Astronomer: I would say "yes"
Shekinah685: cuz if you say faith that will not help at all
Shekinah685: he sees faith as illogical
LAC Astronomer: I'm willing to trust that God exists without having proof
Shekinah685: you are?
Shekinah685: i'm not
Shekinah685: i eamn "proof"
Shekinah685: in what sense
LAC Astronomer: well then he should stop having faith...he can stop having faith in science, he can stop having faith that his life is not a dream
LAC Astronomer: I mean...absolute, inarguable proof for God's existence
Shekinah685: ok..gotcha
LAC Astronomer: I believe that the way the universe is points to God
Shekinah685: exactly
LAC Astronomer: because I believe that God made it...but if I didn't first believe that God made it I don't know what I would say about the things that seem to point to GodShekinah685: ok i gotta go but we can continue this in a littel bit? Oh yeah, and about the picture of GOd. NO we can't show a picture of God. but, say your parents are dead ( not saying God is dead) ok say I've never met your parents!!! you don't have a picture of them..but i know they exist...would I ever question their existence-no. why? because you are here!!! you are the effect of their existence...